Replies: 32

Steven Prevette Posts: 1,488 Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 14, 2005 8:46 PM   Reply There are a number of Deming folks (myself included) always willing to wax eloquent on his works. You may want to check out the discussion thread at http://www.asq.org/discussionBoards/thread.jspa?threadID=1460&tstart=0 This contains several thoughts on learning about his methodologies. Certainly there is the ever popular Six Sigma. There is no end of articles and press releases by ASQ on that system (to the exclusion of all others, it appears most times). Some (myself included) may argue that it is not a management philosophy, but I must acknowledge it is the current big kid on the block. Dr. Juran and his institute are also active, and can be easy to find information in their books. A while back I authored one article in a set of articles about quality systems in Quality Progress. The cover article is "Multiple Choice". I hope some others will respond here with their favorite management theories and how to find out more about them. Steve Prevette Moderator, Ask a QA Pro.

Akio Miura Posts: 1,514 Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 14, 2005 11:00 PM   Reply > Lesson 1: No Substitute for Direct Observation > Lesson 2: Proposed Changes Should be Structured as > Experiments > Lesson 3: Experiment Frequently > Lesson 4: Managers Should Coach, Not Fix > I think this is not an advanced way of management. > One uncivilized quote he gave me was “Management does > not need to know the detail; as long as they can manage > their people are good enough”. Unfortunately, he > never convinces me on his management style. > This looks to be typical way of Toyota’s management. I recommend you to study the Good Management Practice of FDA for medical device. That is much better than ISO 9001 and will give you some clue for good management. About the serious problem of Toyota system, I wrote in another thread. Akio Miura, CQE/CQ Manager/CSSBB

Wes Bucey, Quality Manager Posts: 1,317 Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 15, 2005 1:29 AM   Reply I'm aware of your posts in another thread, Public Concern. The simple fact is: "lower level employees have a very difficult time influencing upper level managers to do anything without first showing those managers how it is in the manager's own best interest to change." The danger is that more bad managers are likely to kill the messenger than are likely to accept and implement the messenger's suggestions with praise and open arms. You seem like a caring and dedicated employee. It is a pity your efforts are running up against a stone wall. I really do believe your best efforts should be in the direction of finding different employment. -Wes Bucey, Quality Manager

John K. Balor Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 15, 2005 2:41 AM   Reply > The author states the reason for Toyota’s success is > not just their “tools and tactics” but rather the use > of continuous experiments to solve problems by > workers and managers alike to create a system that is > constantly improving the company. 4 Key lessons > listed below :- > > Lesson 1: No Substitute for Direct Observation > Lesson 2: Proposed Changes Should be Structured as > Experiments > Lesson 3: Experiment Frequently > Lesson 4: Managers Should Coach, Not Fix > > I basically practicing this method and try to > influent him on this philosophy, but I always > received tremendous blown from my manager. The way I see it, there are basically two ways of quality management. 1) Frederick Taylor's "Scientific Management" (1911), which is the deterministic "one best way" 2) Walter A. Shewhart's "Statistican Method for the Viewpoint of Quality Control" (1938), focusing on stochastic processes. All later books and theories on management and qualtity improvement are just footnotes to these two monumental works. In the case of the Toyota Production System, I've understood that Shiego Shingo was a dedicated student of Taylor, and was deeply critical of the Shewhart/Deming way of using SPC. From my understanding of what you say, you seem to be on the right track. A management philosophy based on the four points above looks like a very good management philosophy indeed. I think you are definitely onto something. If you need more motivation, I would suggest reading Taylor's book or his biography. It is the story about a man who spent his life fighting the sort of management you describe, continuously carrying out industrial experiments in order to improve quality and productivity, and finally became the most well-known management guru in the world. John

Akio Miura Posts: 1,514 Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 15, 2005 5:08 AM   Reply John: It may be a good idea to recommend Taylor’s book to the original poster. However, are you a professional in management? You know only two ways just by reading some books, but there are uncountable ways of management independent of Taylor’s and Shewhart’s ways. Have you ever validated that there are only two ways by practicing company management by yourself? Why you say such a thing that all later books and theories on management and quality improvement are just footnotes to these two works? You should not be so irresponsibly deterministic about management which is not the game of kids and book readers. It is not the monkey business. For quality and productivity, I suggested him to study Good Manufacturing Practice (GMP) of the FDA of the USA which I have been calling “Good Management Practice” for years. This is only one basic idea among many good ideas. I recommended this to him just because this is one of the easiest accesses for his immediate purpose. This is far outside of Taylor’s and Shewhart’s book, and your knowledge. By the way, the following “don’ts” are the important tips, maybe the good way of management. If you do 1 or 2, it will give the “non-topless type” management in any organization a good reasoning to fire you: 1. Don’t stay a Gitlowite or a book reader, saying such a thing as “management is a tool for the way of the statistician”. 2. Don’t persist that only the things written in some books are correct and deny or ignore all other things. 3. Don’t forget that there are many professionals in management. 4. Don’t forget what you studied from Wes, Steve, Bill and me in another thread. Sincerely, Akio

John K. Balor Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 15, 2005 6:54 AM   Reply With respect to my previous post, I should perhaps add that what I stated are my personal understanding of management and quality improvement. As far as I'm concerned, all there is to know about management and quality improvement can be found from a persistent study of the classical works of Taylor and Shewhart. I say this, however, in the same way as Alfred North-Whitehead said that all modern philosophy was a set of footnotes to Plato. As Akio points out, there are many roads that lead to wisdom, and each has to chose the one that feels right. The way I see it, however, is that the sort of wisdom we are looking for in the area of quality management is a deeper understanding of universal engineering values and engineering culture as it applies to solving management problems. Having read hundreds of books in this category and with a long practical experience in working as both a manager and and a quality engineer, my experience is that it really just boils down to Taylor and Shewhart. All the important things were said by these two. Additional insight has been added since 1938, but more in the forms of corollaries than theorems. As far as I can see, the original poster is on the right track. He is using the scientific method. COnducting sequences of controlled experiments. What else is quality improvement than application of the scientific method in an industrial environment? Apparently his managers don't have a clue, but that's normal. By following his four points, my feeling is that results will appear and management will change opinon. "You can't argue with success", as a former U.S. president said, and the only way to make sure that anything will succeed in the long run is through the application of the scientific method. John Balor, Quality Manager

Akio Miura Posts: 1,514 Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 15, 2005 9:41 AM   Reply John: If you were a professional in management, you could have given us the right answer about what is planning and what is TQM. Your personal understanding of management and quality improvement are still “sustaining” to be an amateur at the level of a novice in this area. If you say there are no other ways in management than Taylor’s way and Shewhart’s way, you look to be insulting many professionals who are reading this thread. There are many methods for quality improvement. The highest level methods are not written in such books. The toughest issue for quality improvement is human factors, which are mostly not scientific and much more complicated than scientific issues. Akio

Robert O'Brien Posts: 41 Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 15, 2005 8:53 AM   Reply As far as I know, educational institutions these days do not speak kindly of scientific management. As a student myself, I have basically come to an understanding that Taylor's method of leading people does not work well enough to succeed in today's age. "Managers provide the brains, workers provide the brawns" is no longer a sound theory for success, but is borderline unethical. What about values-based leadership? Regards, Rob

Akio Miura Posts: 1,514 Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 15, 2005 10:23 AM   Reply Rob: You are right. Taylor's management may be good for some companies, but could be no good for other companies. Toyota's system is good at Toyota and some of their suppliers, but is wrecking or eroding and corroding some organizations. The professional manager must select the most appropriate way for each individual organization. Akio

Robert O'Brien Posts: 41 Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 15, 2005 10:58 AM   Reply "The professional manager must select the most appropriate way for each individual organization." *************************** When I read this statement, I think of Jack Welch. There was a lot of hype in the United States about the extraordinary accomplishments Welch made during his time at GE. He is portrayed as a values-based leader placing people first in his organization. Was he always like this? No. Not too many people talk about what Welch used to be. This is in reference to his former title as “Neutron Jack” back in the 1980’s. He was authoritative and even abusive to his employees. How did he justify this? Welch’s response was that “it all depends”. He continued to elaborate that his employees in the 1980’s were slow, unmotivated and unproductive. But things changed and he became the Welch everyone now knows, who values his employees. He changed his management style to what was appropriate for the organization at the time. Regards, Rob

Steven Prevette Posts: 1,488 Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 15, 2005 11:15 AM   Reply This is in reference to > his former title as “Neutron Jack” back in the > 1980’s. He was authoritative and even abusive to his > employees. How did he justify this? Welch’s > response was that “it all depends”. He continued to > elaborate that his employees in the 1980’s were slow, > unmotivated and unproductive. But things changed and > he became the Welch everyone now knows, who values > his employees. He changed his management style to > what was appropriate for the organization at the > time. I suggest that if you look carefully, he was still good ol' Neutron Jack to the end. He just glossed it over with a layer of veneer. Forced rankings of employees, fire the bottom 10%. Look at the severance package he set up for himself. No, I believe Neutron Jack just polished up his act as he got more senior and was able to hide behind the layers of management below him. Steve Prevette ASQ CQE

Wes Bucey, Quality Manager Posts: 1,317 Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 15, 2005 2:12 PM   Reply I, too, have a low opinion of the management model espoused by Welch at GE. As bad as he was to employees, his management style (carried out throughout the entire GE organization) was even more devastating to suppliers who were never invited to be part of a WIN-WIN supply chain, but were constantly paired off in bidding wars against each other and always treated as adversaries, never as true partners, regardless of any "pretty words" in Welch's ghost-wrtten speeches and books.-Wes Bucey, Quality Manager

William Pflanz Posts: 1,405 Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 16, 2005 11:04 AM   Reply I am currently reading Welch's book called Winning . Here is what he says about his forced ranking. Welch calls the ranking differentiation and has been repeatedly asked to defend it. Differentiation is a way to manage people and business. Just like you keep strong businesses and dump weak ones, the same should be done with people. The top 20% are showered with riches and the bottom 10% are driven out. The 70% must be managed differently since they are valuable to function as a company. The challenge is keeping the middle 70 engaged, motivated and improved. If differentiation is unfair it is because it was corrupted by company politics, cronyism and favortitism (Editorial note: Welch thought he and GE did not do that). Abuse can be prevented by a candid, clear cut performance system, with defined expectations, goals and timelines and consistent appraisals. It is based on performance measures that really count. Differentiation is fair since people know where they stand. His analogy was being the first and last picked for playground sports. Another analogy was grades telling us something about ourselves so it is a good form of ranking. Differentiation does not undermine teamwork since high salaries like in baseball are needed to reward the stars and not reward the underperformers and everyone understands the system. The stars cause the team to win and that promotes teamwork. (This analogy never really answered the question about teamwork.) Differentiation favors energetic and extroverted people but that is the way business works. If you are shy and low in energy then you should go into jobs and professions where those characteristics are advantageous. At one point, Welch starts talking about the upper and lower tier of the middle 70% with the upper tier 70's pushing to get into the top 20% which causes the top 20% to perform. He must really believe in 5 or more rankings not the much publicized 3. Differentiation works worldwide although the other cultures may have to learn to manage differently. The information given is to explain Welch's business philosophy and should not be construed that I am supporting his approach. Truthfully, I have never been a fan of Welch. Bill Pflanz > > I suggest that if you look carefully, he was still > good ol' Neutron Jack to the end. He just glossed it > over with a layer of veneer. Forced rankings of > employees, fire the bottom 10%. Look at the > severance package he set up for himself. No, I > believe Neutron Jack just polished up his act as he > got more senior and was able to hide behind the > layers of management below him. > > Steve Prevette > ASQ CQE

Wesley Richardson Posts: 1,258 Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 16, 2005 1:35 PM   Reply > The top 20% are showered with riches and the bottom > 10% are driven out. I think this can be a good thing, but can also lead to problems. One company that I worked at followed a system more like reward the top 10%, keep the middle 70%, and get rid of the bottom 20%. As a manager, I was required once a year to rank my people, which I did. Ok the first year that this was put into effect, we got rid of the poorer performers. This was good, because over time, we tend to keep some people that we should have not kept. At the same time, we had a hiring freeze going on for about 4 years in a row. During the second year of this process, it was harder to pick the bottom performers, and there were actually more people that should have been at the top. The pay increases or no increase were also linked to the ranking. By the third year, I felt we didn't have any deadwood in my group, but I still had to reduce head count. One person was able to transfer to a different division, but within the company to fill a replacement vacancy there. If you do the math, and that is the way it worked out, by the end of the third cycle, my quality department had 50% of the number of people, but was expected to provide the same support as previously. That support level could not be maintained, but was the situation that I was in. At the end of the fourth cycle, I was the one told, along with many other people in the division, that my services were no longer needed and to find new friends. This system was not the only factor that led to my being laid off, but it certainly contributed to it. Wes R.

Guest Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 15, 2005 12:46 PM   Reply SUN TZU ON THE ART OF WAR

John K. Balor Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 15, 2005 2:54 PM   Reply Taylor is one of those prophets who was not understood in his home country, I think. In France he appears to be much better understood, and also at Toyota, I believe, through Shingo's interpretation. The important thing about Taylor is not the management technology of his time, but how he addressed the problems of management, i.e. in a systematic and scientific manner, by a series of experiments, just as Mr. "Public Concern" explains the Toyota philosophy. Not only did Taylor revolutionise management thinking in terms of turning the production floor into a laboratory, but, according to Richard Hamel, Peter Drucker and others, he invented modern management in terms of most of the management fads that have swept the business world since the 1970's can be traced back to Taylor somehow. One very important aspect of his thinking, as Rob points out, is the separation between management and employee. The vital importance of this was perhaps not fully understood until people like Deming and Ackoff persisted that top management are reponsible for quality ("common causes") as they are the owners of the company management system. When it comes to Taylor and Human Relations Management, fairness and justness are the things he focuses on. As his "scientific approach" was developed at a time before statistics had revolutionised the way we think, Shewhart's "stochastic approach" has added much of value to scientific management of people, I believe. Deming was perhaps the one to fully understand this, as is evident in some of his 14 points and much of his later writing in particular. I'm happy that Akio disagrees with me on this topic, as disagreement often leads to new level of understanding. There are many ways of looking at management and quality improvement. What has given me the most success is by viewing TQM through the lens of Deming. The best way of understanding Deming, I believe, is by understanding the management gurus that inspired him; Taylor and Shewhart. To Mr. "Public Concern" I would suggest him to skip random advise from such "gurus" as Jack Welsh, Donald Trump, Jim Collins etc., but rather continue along his well-chosen path of solid quality engineering. John

Wes Bucey, Quality Manager Posts: 1,317 Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 15, 2005 9:52 PM   Reply Mr. Taylor is to be credited with introducing "scientific management" - that is a fact. Even more famous to Americans are two folks who worked for Mr. Taylor for a while, until they went on to found their own highly successful management consulting company - Mr. and Mrs. Gilbreth, better know to Americans as the people in the movie, Cheaper by the Dozen, with Clifton Webb starring as Mr. Gilbreth. The original theories of Taylor are over 100 years old and great strides have been made in sociology and psychology since then. Taylor's theories are simply not acceptable in the modern workplace without massive reworking to incorporate those changes. Modern business managers may learn basic concepts from reading "classics" like Taylor and Gilbreth and even studying about Henry Ford and Thomas Edison. But using the telescope of hindsight, we can see that the theories and practices from the past cannot be transplanted whole and intact a century into the future (our present day) and still work without "some" modification. In a way, Gilbreth may be considered an early creator and user of "work instructions" which standardized the most efficient methods of master workers to devise a way for even average workers to achieve a Standard of production quantity and quality. Gilbreth did a landmark study of bricklayers of varying skill and capability, ultimately devising a Standard method which increased the average production of a crew of bricklayers more than 100% with an accompanying improvement in the quality of a course of bricks laid down by each worker. The point, if any, I am trying to make here is that it is wonderful to be able to look back through history at various landmark folks, but we have to keep our eyes on the present and the future. The only constant in business is CHANGE. We must prepare ourselves to accept change and turn it to our advantage. We are doomed to failure if we try to revive an old technique as anything other than a "quaint curio." For example, hand crafting a piece of furniture may be wonderful for the craftsman and for the buyer willing to pay a premium for the lavish attention and skill employed by the craftsman, but reality is the quantity of furniture demanded today requires automated factories to turn out sufficient quantities at a price folks are willing to pay. Taylor and Gilbreth and their ilk running around factory floors with stopwatches would be redundant in a world based on automation with automatic timers and computers replacing the stopwatches and Design of Experiments replacing the insights and intuition of Taylor and Gilbreth. Perhaps we owe something to Taylor and Gilbreth for the concept we know today as "mistake proofing," but the line is difficult to draw and most would prefer to learn from modern proponents of mistake proofing.-Wes Bucey, Quality Manager

John K. Balor Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 16, 2005 3:17 AM   Reply I agree completely with Wesley Bucey on this, although I might add that, in Europe, Gilbreth is probably more seen as an early efficiency engineer while Taylor is regarded as the philosophical force behind the efficiency movement. Working as an international consultant in his later years, I believe Taylor had an enormous influence on revolutionising the way organisations thought about management and productivity improvement in most industrial countries in Europe and elsewhere. Even though the original theories of Taylor are more or less 100 years old, so are the theories of Einstein, Darwin and Freud. In my perception, the reason while Taylor seem to be sadly underrated by some, is due to the fact that he had an engineering approach towards management while most people who get MBAs or work in management have no proper background nor theoretical understanding of (quality) engineering. Deming's message about the failure of modern management seems no less out of place today than it did in 1980. The problem, as I see it, is partly the "Peter Principle" (1969), i.e. that the people who reach the management positions are the people who are most incompetent, and partly that management positions is a magnet for people who lust for power. My impression is that the view such people have on the organisation is often highly in constrast with how people like Taylor and Deming thought, i.e. viewing the organisation as a system that should be continuously improved. On page ix in "The Principles of Scientific Management", Taylor says: In the past the man has been first; in the future the system must be first. I can imagine Deming and Ackoff nodding in agreement as they read this, while simultanously irritating people who lead by "charisma", "gut-feeling", "values" and see themselves as the most important person in the organisation. In a way, of course, the CEO is the most important person in the organisation, but probably not in the way that most CEOs like to think of it. Dr. Gitlow made a splendid point on this, in his article "Thanks for the Michi". It has already been discussed in another thread, but I think it is so good that it is worth repeating: [Deming] was fearless. I recall being at one of America's largest firms with Dr. Deming on his eighty-first or eighty-second birthday. The top management of the company had arrange a birthday party, comple with a huge cake, in his honour. After cake and coffee, Dr. Deming addressed the top management. His opening lines almost knocked me out of my seat. He said, "Do you know what is wrong with your company?" The room was silent - you could hear a pin drop. Dr. Deming pointed to the president and chief executive officer and said, "Him. He is what's wrong with your company." From a systems point of view, the CEO is reduced to a cog in the machine, just like anybody else, and I believe this doesn't flatter the type of people who usually strive for the position of CEO. The systems view is only one of the many important things that Taylor mentions in his book. The book is actually littered with profound insights of all kinds. It is also a rather small book (126 pages), easy to read and cheap to buy. In my opinion, everybody working with management and quality improvement issues should have it shelfed next to the Bible. One of the last people who spoke to Deming, late 1993, asked him to summarise his philosophy of management, and Deming replied "systems thinking" and "win-win". I believe Taylor would have used exactly the same words. John

Akio Miura Posts: 1,514 Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 16, 2005 9:45 AM   Reply To John; Thanks for letting us know that we can buy Taylor’s book of a century ago. I placed an order with Amazon today. You can be a good historian. Actual management practice is quite different from the theory written in books. In the past 30 years experience as the CEO and management consultant, I have not used any books but practiced my own management system and helped many companies. My management system is not written in any book. It is my trade secret. We should “Take Ten” like good Taylorism now. To All: The book of Sun Tzu “The Art of War” recommended by Guest is a very good book. I read that book 40 years ago, but as I lost that old copy, I ordered its English translation together with Taylor’s book. As it includes various strategies and tactics, it has been used as the textbooks not only for battle but for management for hundreds of years in China and Japan. Maybe key points of Taylorism are already covered in it. About Jack Welch, I feel the same way as Steve and Wes. I can guess “his management style was even more devastating to suppliers who were never invited to be part of a WIN-WIN supply chain, but were constantly paired off in bidding wars against each other and always treated as adversaries, never as true partners”. It is quite similar to the way of Japanese car manufacturers. I heard from one car radio supplier to them. The car mfgr said to all the parts suppliers, “we are going to export cars to the USA. So you have to make 10 % discount” and most suppliers accepted it. This is the true story about 20 or 30 years ago. This makes the parts supplier really “lean”. I do not like such dumping violating the US Trade Law. That is one of the reasons why I do not like “poka kanban kaizen”. Akio Miura

Robert O'Brien Posts: 41 Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 16, 2005 12:22 PM   Reply I, myself do not accept Welch’s approach to management to be considered appropriate. I did not want to give the wrong impression in my earlier post. I have been misled by how much positive media attention Welch received during the 90’s and even today. It is impossible to go into a bookstore, enter the business section, and not see a book with Welch’s picture on it. I read a book by James O’Toole called Leading Change (1995 Jossey-Bass) which the author seriously questioned Welch’s ability as a manager and leader. The feedback generated in this discussion further exemplifies the points illustrated in O’Toole’s book. I just don’t understand why more people can’t see this in Welch, and why he continues to be in the spotlight as this “great” manager of our time. Rob

Akio Miura Posts: 1,514 Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 17, 2005 12:18 AM   Reply About Jack Welch, I feel the same way as Rob, Steve, Wes, and Bill, although there are many people here who are saying “it is true because Jack Welch said that way”. They believe only such ghost-written books. Taylor’s scientific management reminded me of the management system of Japanese Navy and Army which were disbanded and disappeared after WWII. I know their system a little bit because my father and my uncle were working for Japanese Navy when I was a small boy during WWII. In 1950s, Japanese government sent my uncle to the USA to study the US management system and military standards for product quality. After return home, he reported to the government, “there is nothing new because almost everything is the same as the old Japanese Navy’s system”. As almost all the Japanese quality management and control system were destroyed at the end of WWII, the government adopted the MIL-Spec and MIL-Stds he brought back, and incorporated them into the Japanese Industrial Standards one after another. Besides that, Japanese leading manufacturers in key industries very eagerly imported American and European equipment and technologies in 1950s and 1960s. That changed the Japanese quality. It was not only by Deming. Only the least advanced industries (such as automobile and electronics) learned from Deming “from scratch” because they did not know any management and control. Quite recently, I found that the old Japanese Navy learned everything from the British Royal Navy around 1850 and Japanese Army from French Army about the same time. That is one of the reasons why the old Japanese Navy’s management was similar to the US Navy’s system which is also from the British Royal Navy. By the way, Japanese Navy and Army were not friendly to each other until their collapse in 1945. I got it now. There was a big gap separating them like the Dover Strait. Back to management. The management by the old Chinese Sun Tsu’s art of war and that of modern army and navy systems (maybe “samurai” in Deming’s word) in communication channel (commanding / reporting) and human resource control are similar to each other in various aspects, although they are altogether independent of each other. This shows that there is no cultural difference and that history repeats itself. Chinese old saying by Confucious, “a man who reviews the old so as to learn the new, is qualified to teach others” (from Bill Pflanz post on May 31). In my words, “try to find new things or a guide into tomorrow by taking lessons from the past.” This is one of the examples of the PDCA practiced from centuries ago. Without this, we merely reinvent the wheel or repeat regression like a carousel or Ixion’s wheel. Akio

John K. Balor Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 17, 2005 2:47 AM   Reply > Taylor’s scientific management reminded me of the > management system of Japanese Navy and Army which > were disbanded and disappeared after WWII. I know > their system a little bit because my father and my > uncle were working for Japanese Navy when I was a > small boy during WWII. > > In 1950s, Japanese government sent my uncle to the > USA to study the US management system and military > standards for product quality. After return home, he > reported to the government, “there is nothing new > because almost everything is the same as the old > Japanese Navy’s system”. As almost all the Japanese > quality management and control system were destroyed > at the end of WWII, the government adopted the > MIL-Spec and MIL-Stds he brought back, and > incorporated them into the Japanese Industrial > Standards one after another. You write fascinatingly, Akio. There are important links between military management and the ways to manage large coorporations. I believe I've heard people suggest that Frederick the Great, of Prussia (18th century), was the grandfather of modern management. > Back to management. The management by the old > Chinese Sun Tsu’s art of war and that of modern army > and navy systems (maybe “samurai” in Deming’s word) > in communication channel (commanding / reporting) and > human resource control are similar to each other in > various aspects, although they are altogether > independent of each other. This shows that there is > no cultural difference and that history repeats > itself. > > Chinese old saying by Confucious, “a man who reviews > the old so as to learn the new, is qualified to teach > others” (from Bill Pflanz post on May 31). In my > words, “try to find new things or a guide into > tomorrow by taking lessons from the past.” This is > one of the examples of the PDCA practiced from > centuries ago. Without this, we merely reinvent the > wheel or repeat regression like a carousel or Ixion’s > wheel. You know, Deming used to refer to PDCA as the "Shewhart wheel". Sometimes cyclic behaviour may seem like Ixion's wheel of never getting anywhere, but here is what Shewhart had to say about the PDCA cycle on page 45 of Statistical Method from the Viewpoint of Quality Control: From this viewpoint [plan = hypothesis, do = experiment, check = test of hypothesis], it might be better to show [the components of the PDCA cycle] as forming a sort of spiral gradually approaching a circular path which would represent the idealised case where no evidence is found [in the check phase] to indicate a need for cahngin the specification (or scientific hypothesis) no matter how many times we repeat the three steps. In other words, the question is: When are we running the Shewhart Wheel and when are we running the Ixion Wheel. On repeated iterations, the Shewhart wheel will converge into the Ixion wheel. However, if we do not follow the Shewhart whell, we will learn nothing, so it is an interesting question indeed. John

Akio Miura Posts: 1,514 Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 17, 2005 5:45 AM   Reply John: Translation of “On War (Vom Kriege)” by Carl von Clausewitz of 180 years ago has been selling very well in Japan since mid 18th century. (I have not read it yet.) It is said that he emphasized the plan before doing, because planning is important especially in fighting. I think it will give you many good ideas for management and PDCA. We have to use military system and books not for fighting purpose but for peaceful purpose. Do you know Operations Research was first developed in England for military use. So is the theory of game in math. By the way, do you know many Japanese soldiers did not like to use the bayonet in war, and they used it for peaceful purpose. They used it mainly as the kitchen knife, grass cutter, and sometimes as the pencil sharpener. This may be a good example that anything can be used for peaceful engineering and management. We should do so. The PDCA wheel is going up like a spiral staircase, while Ixion’s wheel is a flat circle, not going up at all. If there is convergence by the PDCA wheel, it means that it is closing its goal. Akio

William Pflanz Posts: 1,405 Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 17, 2005 8:46 AM   Reply Akio, Your comments on Japanese management systems is very timely for me. I started teaching a Quality Management class last night at a local university and we had a lively discussion about Taylor, Deming and what Japan learned about quality in the 1950's. If it is okay with you I would like to share your story about Japanese manufacturing in the 1950's and 1960's. I had also introduced them to Sun Tsu's management theories. They had not heard of him before and your comments about art of war were consistent with what I was teaching. This thread and the other recent threads on quality management systems have been very useful in either supporting what I am teaching or reminding me of other systems and methods that should be discussed. Thanks to the many contributors to the discussion. Bill Pflanz

Akio Miura Posts: 1,514 Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 17, 2005 10:11 AM   Reply Bill: Thanks for feedback to my comments. It is OK with you to share any part of my posting. I e-mailed three of my papers for your reference a moment ago. During WWII, my father was Accounting Officer of some Navy organization. Japanese Navy high rank officers in Shanghai base were using cars of Ford or GM with chauffeurs, because the quality of Japanese cars were terrible then. At present, almost all Japanese people forgot why Japanese quality was improved in the period between 1955 and 1975. It is neither by Deming nor such people in such books. Besides the efforts of Japanese government, contribution of many good US companies, such as Mesta Machine Co., United Engineering, Braw-Knox, U. S. Steel, Bethlehem Steel, ALCOA, Westinghouse, GE (not with Jack Welch), Babcock & Wilcox, Taylor Winfield (not Frederick Winslow), was really great. I still remember. Some of these companies were my competitors then. However, their quality was very good. Akio Miura

John K. Balor Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 17, 2005 4:04 PM   Reply Akio: Thanks for reminding me of "Vom Kriege". I have had that book on my reading list for many years, but have not read it yet. Your comments about the development of Japan as an industrial nation is very interesting. Do you think SPC was known in Japan before the arrival of Deming? John

Akio Miura Posts: 1,514 Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 18, 2005 1:08 PM   Reply > Akio: > > Your comments about the development of Japan as an > industrial nation is very interesting. Do you think > SPC was known in Japan before the arrival of Deming? > John: You are taking that the quality control is only the Shewhart’s SPC, but it is incorrect. The Shewhart’s SPC is only a part of stat techniques. In quality control, there are many areas that do not require stat techniques. The most important thing with stat is probability theory. Probability theory is the basis for scientific sampling, prediction, confidence interval, reliability engineering, and hypothesis testing. Nobody here can tell what quality control the Japanese Navy had because all technical data that survived American air raid were burnt or thrown away after the end of WWII. One thing I can say about Japanese quality before WWII is that they knew probability theory and had some sampling plans but it was different from those of the USA. After the war, they have adopted the U. S. military standards, as well as the U. S. military specification for quality control and quality assurance (MIL-Q-9858A) as such. These are not through Deming. There was no SPC using control charts before Deming brought the Shewhart’s SPC. Japan had good mathematicians about 300 or 400 years ago. It was mostly based on Chinese mathematics. However, differential and infinitesimal calculus was invented by a Japanese mathematician in his unique way. You know that differential and infinitesimal calculus was invented by Sir Isaac Newton about 300 years ago. Gottfried Leibniz in Germany did it independent of Newton about the same time. One Japanese mathematician, Seki, did it independent of both of them around that time. (This fact is being forgotten even in Japan.) They had no way to communicate with each other. From this, I dare say that different people can think of the same thing, and right things are right for any different people. Statistics was imported from Europe into Japan through China mid 18th century. It is not together with the military system but it happened that it was about the same time. As Japanese stat textbooks are based on the translation from Chinese textbooks, they are using lots of difficult Chinese terms and we cannot understand well. So I bought American textbook “Modern Statistics” around 1960 and understood it. The content of that book is still modern, and helped me pass the ASQ CQE and CRE exams with almost no preparation except practicing exercise questions published by ASQC in 1980s. I am happy because there is no stupid “poka kaizen” or “Lean changes” in mathematics, as I wrote somewhere. Akio

Public concern Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 19, 2005 8:36 PM   Reply Hi Steven Prevette, Akio Miura, Wesley Bucey, John K. Balor, Robert O'Brien, William Pflanz, Bill Pflanz & Guest, Good day to you all. I am really appreciates from all your sincere reply. I am starting to like you guy. Basically, I am more technical orientated. I prefer more insight on the technology. But I start to appreciate the quality management side of it. Thanks to you guy. But I had confirmed one item, “The Quality management actual work for everybody.” But like all other theorem or hypotheses, there is exceptional case. In this case is “hypocrite management”. Owing to you guy, I read the following : a) Deming’s 14 points applied to services. ISBN : 0-8247-8517-7 by AC Rosander. ASQC 1991. b) ART of War. http://www.chinapage.org/philosophy/sunzi/sunzi-e.html (free for download, I manage to spare some money for other book). Other Chinese literature is provided as well (Lao Tzu text is needed for US military personnel / congressmen as well). But I have question for you. Have you encounter “hypocrite manager” and how you dealing with it especially he is a one that you have report to? In the Deming’s book, the weakness of the management listed in the book, I found it here, all of it. I believe you know what I means….

Steven Prevette Posts: 1,488 Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 20, 2005 9:32 AM   Reply > But I have question for you. Have you encounter > “hypocrite manager” and how you dealing with it > especially he is a one that you have report to? In > the Deming’s book, the weakness of the management > listed in the book, I found it here, all of it. I > believe you know what I means…. Said manager is still your manager, with the ability to make things more or less miserable for you. Wes has written elsewhere a lot about whistleblowing and the downfalls of that. Here are the more realistic options: 1. Work with your manager to show the benefits of what you do (for me, that is doing SPC). Give them the benefit of the doubt. Work with them. I loaned my VP Tom Peters' book "Reimagine" and it was instrumental in our relationship. 2. Provide your manager what they want, but continue to show alternatives. I had a new VP (who was not my manager) come in and insisted we must use moving averages. I was basically forced to shift charts from SPC to moving averages. I did so, but only did what was directed explicitly. The effort failed miserably, the VP could never explain what the moving averages were doing. I got asked at one point to "add first aid case rates" to the charts. I did so, but shifted everything back to SPC in my submittal. It flew (I think I quietly allowed them wiggle room to use the excuse of adding first aid cases to shift back to SPC). 3. Alternately, refuse to do something that is incorrect. This is dangerous, but may be necessary. My manager (about 5 managers ago) wanted the control limits removed from a chart. I showed him in Excel how to do the removal, but insisted he himself do the removal, I would not. 4. Do realize managers come and go. I have had 15 different managers in 12 years. 5. Do work for other managers. If you offer a good and unique service, people from other departments will be asking for help. Get connected with the workers. Get connected to projects with tangible products. 6. Worse comes to worse, you are not a slave. You can always quit your job. - Steve Prevette ASQ CQE

Wes Bucey, Quality Manager Posts: 1,317 Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 20, 2005 11:53 AM   Reply This may be the main thread about "whistleblowing" to which Steve refers. http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=9939 This is a copy of the opening post of a thread containing 33 posts: @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Ethics - Moral law vs. Criminal law ------------------------- Background: From time to time, Cove members write posts which disclose facts or "hypotheticals" about observing false records being entered or about being asked by management to change or alter Quality records to "make the company look good." Sometimes the posts express real bewilderment with a request, "What should I do?" More often, though, the poster knows exactly that the situation is wrong, maybe even criminally wrong, and is expressing his frustration that he is forced into making a decision whether to follow his conscience or to endanger the economic well-being of his family by refusing to do anything wrong or even (in an extreme case) "blowing the whistle" on the wrongdoers, in which case he may even be fired in retaliation. The current situation: In the USA, there are some so-called "whistle blower" laws which are supposed to protect employees from retaliation when they inform authorities about criminal activities. The real truth, though, is that it often takes a long, expensive court battle to get reinstated or to get compensation. In the meantime, the employee who has been fired is left hanging in the wind and often loses friends and spends all savings just trying to find another job. There are sad tales of folks who suffered horribly after blowing the whistle (consider Karen Silkwood.) Sometimes, these would-be whistleblowers engage in criminal activity themselves, trying to get evidence to protect themselves, by stealing records or making illegal recordings. They do this out of ignorance of the laws and of their true rights. Sometimes, the very act of stealing or copying records may make them inadmissable in court, negating the whole attempt. What should you do if you find yourself between a rock and a hard place on a question having to do with ethics or criminality? Some courses of action: 1) Confirm your suspicion that you witnessed wrongdoing "on purpose" versus "from ignorance." A guy who realizes he transposed his digits the first time he wrote an inspection dimension and erases the error is not a criminal - just a fool. A manager who creates a forged SPC chart to meet a 1.33 Cpk requirement is both a fool and a criminal. 2) If the wrongdoing is from ignorance, your primary responsibility is to inform someone in authority within the organization so they can investigate and take some sort of corrective or preventive action. If the wrongdoing is from criminal intent, you ought to determine if it is limited to one individual or is systemic. 3) If individual, see item (2), unless it is the very top officer; if systemic, or the top officer, see a qualified employment lawyer first, before gathering documents or secret recordings. The primary purpose of the lawyer is to protect you and your family, then to expose the criminal activity to proper authorities, perhaps even to cooperate or collaborate with authorities. Under no circumstances should you attempt to do any cooperation or collaboration with authorities without advice and agreement from your attorney every step of the way. Summary: 1) Above all, remember that following a formal legal course of action will result in a more permanent resolution to the problem than a suicidal rush to "expose the evildoers." 2) Not every instance of wrongdoing is criminal or even purposeful, some are just the result of ignorance or stupidity. 3) If there is any lingering question whether the activities you witness or are being asked to perform are criminal, the input from the lawyer will help resolve that question. 4) Under no circumstances should you try to steal or copy confidential documents to bolster your case. (Google "Mark Whitacre") If, after your conversation with the attorney, referral to legal authorities takes place, they can issue search warrants and go in and seize ALL necessary documents and assure they will be admitted as evidence. 5) Prepare for the LONG wait. It may be years, if ever, before you can get compensation for wrongful termination. 6) Disregard tales of anyone who says, "When it happened to me, I just told them . . . stop it, or else . . . and they straightened right out." That's pure fantasy. Reread stories about Rich Taus, Karen Silkwood, Ed Bricker, and others for a dose of reality. 7) Regardless of the fact there is a government route for whistle blowing on a corporation, do NOT take that route without the advice of a lawyer who will protect YOUR interests. 8) Above all, choose your battles. Consider yourself. Consider your own REAL motive for doing this. Are you afraid life, health, safety of people are affected by the wrongdoing? Do it! Are you just hoping to get a "reward" (10% of moneys recovered from wrongdoing corporations?) Maybe do it. Are you just getting even with the SOB who promoted his brother-in-law instead of you? Think twice. Did the guy humiliate you in public and now you are going to get "even?" Don't waste your time. Quote: We had a guy once try to blow the whistle against the Cove because he felt he had been ridiculed and humiliated by one or more of the Cove regulars. He did NOT consult a lawyer before so doing and ended up looking even more ridiculous when his gambit failed. If nothing else, your visit to the lawyer will be the big reality check you need. Bottom line: Often, the activity, while reprehensible, is not criminal and your best recourse is just to find a new job. Some folks may add to this thread with examples of reprehensible conduct that is legal, but odious - one that comes to mind are "payroll advance" lenders. @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ The point is that I, personally, am very aware of the pluses and minuses of whistleblowing. Don't waste your time venting about a bad situation. Either do something to change it or do something to change your relationship to it (leaving the position.) Venting just makes one seem like an ineffectual blowhard and accomplishes nothing.-Wes Bucey, Quality Manager

Public concern Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 20, 2005 7:24 PM   Reply Hi Wes and Steve, Good day. Okay. I really appreciate your advice and opinion. You are absolutely right. The reason that I am post this thread is not for the purpose for the “whistle blowing” – sorry I did not state it clearly during the initial posting. I admit that I maybe inexperience, I have intuition that it is right and I had confirm it is right. Anyhow, It make me to come to a conclusion that no worth to have conflict with him. For last few months, I had started to spend more time to do my reading that I left over for years. Thank you for your advice and blessing.

Akio Miura Posts: 1,514 Re: Any other management philosophy like Toyota Production System (TPS). Posted: Jun 20, 2005 7:38 PM   Reply > But I have question for you. Have you encounter > “hypocrite manager” and how you dealing with it > especially he is a one that you have report to? In > the Deming’s book, the weakness of the management > listed in the book, I found it here, all of it. I > believe you know what I means…. I guess your term “hypocrite manager” includes those who are hypocrites ethically or legally (including those criminal) or personally, and those dishonest, nasty, bad only to you, or not to your liking. If so, 50% of managers may be of this type. Some people say it is 80%. Let’s call them “bad bosses” for us. There are “bad subordinates” and “bad employees” as well. I have encountered “bad bosses” many times in my life, but I could not do anything except venting, which gave me only adverse effects. So in most cases, I just stood them and obeyed them. Another problem was that however well I obeyed them, he was never satisfied with it just because I was his “target”. The bad boss can have his own logic for justification. There was only one use of them. I used them as “good” negative example – to teach many people that we should not be of such type. Controlling or managing subordinates and employees is the subject of management. But controlling or managing bosses is not in the scope of company management. However, it is a common issue and very important for all people. In other points, I entirely agree with the responses from Steve and Wes. Akio